HYNEK MARTINEC
海德尼克·馬提尼克


A: Are there any great impact on your art when you first come to London? Since you come from former –communist country to capitalism country. How do you get into this totally different society?

H: It’s very difficult, to be honest. There are things that I still don’t understand in the society or somewhere. Sometimes I hate it but sometimes I really appreciate it. If you come here, there are very strict rules, and I really appreciate it when I came from Paris. I think in Paris there are no very good rules, not clear rules. I always give the example of the underground, the underground is the good example. If you go to metro in Prague, we call it metro, or underground, we don’t have any gate, you can just go through, which means that it’s up to you to buy a ticket. Not all of them do it anyway. But it’s your morality, it’s questioning yourself, if you want to use the metro, buy a ticket, and it will take you in the system somewhere inside. But you can pass it without paying, you can go, if you think ‘I just go one stop, why shall I pay’? So the gate is open. If you go to Paris, there are quite big different gates, but lots of people jump over it. I’m not joking. No one catch them. Amazing! It’s still happening now. Believe me. And people can smoke in the underground, and pee, and everything in Paris, which you can’t do in Prague. Anyway, so the idea is, there are borders, there are some rules, but they can jump, they can ignore it. That’s the irony. They don’t care. I think this was ridiculous. But in London, this is another system. They have two persons, one sitting in the box, and one standing by the gate. In Paris, if one running and jumping in the underground, nothing would happen, because it’s happening everyday. But when you come to London, if you do that, they will kill you. There are very strict rules here. No way to escape.

A:第一次來倫敦後對你的藝術創作有什麼重要影響嗎?你從一個前社會主義國家來到資本主義國家,你是怎麼適應這兩個不同的社會呢?

H:說實話,其實是挺困難的。有些事情我到現在也沒能理解。有時候我很討厭它,但有時候我又很欣賞這樣的社會體制。這裡有著非常嚴格的規則和制度,當我從巴黎來倫敦的時候我就發現了,而且很贊同這樣的做法。我覺得巴黎沒有很好的規則,或者說規則不是很明確。我經常用地鐵來作例子說明這種差異。

如果你在布拉格坐地鐵,你會發現沒有任何閘口或門,所以你買不買票坐地鐵都是靠自覺的。不是所有人都會自覺買票,但這是對你自身道德的考驗,你可以買票坐地鐵,但你也可以不買票直接上車,或許你會想我只是坐一站而已,為什麼要買票呢?所以,門是隨時開著的,買不買票是取決你自己。在巴黎你會發現很多不同的門,但是很多人視若無睹地直接越門而進。我可不是開玩笑,沒有人會阻止他們,真的太神奇了。相信我,現在還是這樣的。人們還可以在地鐵裡抽煙、撒尿,干各種事,這些在布拉格都不允許發生。所以我覺得巴黎有規則,但是人們可以逾越這些規則,他們可以無視這些規則。這是多麼諷刺的事啊!他們根本就不在乎,在我看來這太不可思議了。但是在倫敦,存在著另一種系統規則。每個地鐵站都有兩個工作人員,一個在崗位坐著,一個在閘口旁邊站著。在巴黎,如果有人在地鐵站追逐奔跑就像沒事發生一樣,因為每天都會發生。可是如果這種事情在倫敦發生,他們會把你殺了。這裡有十分嚴格的規則,沒有空子可以鑽。

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A: They have undercover inspector as well.

H: Yes, exactly. In Paris and Prague, you can see them miles away, wearing proper suit, having their names on. Anyway, I would say this is that kind of controlling. So being an artist in this sort of system, at the beginning I really like it. Because I thought I knew what I could get from the society, which you can realize. When you go over red line, you know that you are facing a penalty. But in Paris, you know you are not facing penalty, because I can run away. And in Prague, no one even ask you. You just go. So here in London it’s always strict, it’s very clear. That’s why at the beginning I really like it when I came in

2008. Sometimes it’s too much tight here, but now I’m very happy to discover that some places in London are not very much controlled, which is quite free and open. And also the other thing is quite tricky, in the past they were dictated by regime, and now is by the money.

But you know, you could compare it. Because there’s freedom here, you can do whatever you like. But it’s very expensive, just the strong one can survive.

I think at the same time it’s very good to have those kind of pressure, because you want to produce, you want to be good, you want to paint, you want to show the good works to people, you want to beat it. Because if you are right in the sleeping place in Paris or in Prague, which I’m not criticizing, it is a good place to work, it’s still growing as well. But I need this kind of competition as well. On the other side, if you talking about the selling works and having the gallery and representing, that’s the other thing. London has the best in Europe. So it’s not about just good art, good work, but also how the gallery support, how everything is supported, but you need to be good to get that. I would say that since 2000 I thought London was an interesting place to be. It’s just difficult to get in to make an attention and so on in the right art world. Because the art world here is very massive, so they are like two circles, one was extremely commercial, in a way there are bad paintings, bad art, something like rubbish, and on the other side it’s like Frieze, which is very important, and that’s very difficult to approach.

Many people would criticize that art shouldn’t be involved with money. Some artists are like that, ‘no no, just don’t touch it’. But I quite like the words that Anish Kapoor once mentioned, ‘Good art has always been near money’. And I think that is the answer because if we think about the past, for example the Christianity, which was always being painted a lot, produced good paintings, produced good art, a good fresco, a good chapel, whatever. It costs lots of money because it’s never cheap. I think the problem nowadays is that maybe the money is everywhere, maybe the taste, and politics maybe are ruining it, because they think that they can buy everything, and they are able to spend money on rubbish, and that’s what it is quite bad. I believe that the good artworks will survive, will always stand out from the bad art. But I think it’s up to artist to really decide where to sell the work, and which art fairs to join, and the galleries and so on. It’s very easy to get lost in the art world. There is so much going on, and it’s not just about what you want to do as an artist, but also where you want to meet as an artist, which society you want to be, what is your audience, what gallery is and so on. So I mean it’s very big complex of this, but I don’t think you will get this in Prague. In Paris you will get it but in a small scale, not like here. It is difficult at the same time, but on the other side, it’s a challenge, and opportunities are still here at the moment.

A: 倫敦這裡還有便衣檢票員。

H:對的。在巴黎和布拉格,你老遠就能看到穿著制服、別著胸章的檢票員。倫敦有一種明確的制約。所以作為藝術家,一開始的時候我真的很喜歡這種系統。因為如果你犯規了,你知道你將面臨被懲罰的風險。但是在巴黎,你知道你可以逃過懲罰。在布拉格,根本就沒有人責問你,走就是了。所以說在倫敦,萬事皆有準則,而且是非常嚴格、明瞭的規則。那就是為什麼我一開始很喜歡倫敦的原因。雖然有時候過於死板,但現在我發現有些地方也不是那麼緊張的,倫敦也有很多自由開放的方面。微妙的是,過去的倫敦是受體制支配的,但現在卻受金錢支配了。無論如何,你可以對比這些城市的優劣,倫敦有很大的自由度,你可以做任何你喜歡做的事。雖然成本非常高,只有強者才能留下來。

 

我想有這樣的壓力是好事,因為這樣你就更有動力去創作,你想要變得更好,想要把好的作品呈現給大家。如果你在像巴黎或布拉格這樣慵懶的城市,我沒有批評的意思,在那也能成長。但是我需要這樣的競爭壓力。作品的出售或尋找畫廊代理這些是另一方面,倫敦是全歐洲最好的地方,不僅僅是關於好藝術,好畫,而是畫廊的支持,各方面的幫助,但前提是你得足好才能得到這些。從2000年開始我就覺得倫敦是一個有趣的地方,得逗留的地方。其實很難能找到一個適合的藝術環境和獲得關注。因為藝術圈實在是太大了,基本分為兩個圈子,一個是非常商業化的圈子,那裡有不怎麼好的畫或藝術品,差得像垃圾一樣,另一邊則是像Frieze一樣重要的圈子,但是非常難進入。

 

許多人會批判藝術與金錢掛鉤,有些藝術家就盡量避免和金

錢扯上太多關係,怕藝術被金錢染。但我認為安尼施卡普爾(Anish Kapoor的話很實在:好的藝術品總會與金錢靠得很近。我認為他得很對,回想過去那些藝術史上的驚世作品,打比方關於基督教主題的經常反覆出現,也誕生了很多很好的作品,壁畫啊,教堂啊等等。這些作品都需要大量金錢來支持,但並不因此變得俗氣。我認為當今的問題是,金錢隨處都是,關係或許在於品味,或者政治在一定程度上摧毀藝術,因為人們覺得自己有錢就可以購買任何東西,他們花錢在垃圾上也沒什麼大不了的,我覺得這樣的風氣不是太好。我相信好的藝術品是能傳世的,能從劣質藝術品中穎而出的。但有時候也需要看藝術家如何抉擇,哪裡賣畫,參加哪個藝術博覽會或加入哪個畫廊等等。在藝術圈裡很容易會迷失,因為實在太多事情要考慮了,不但需要想清楚作為藝術家要怎麼做,還需要考慮在哪裡作為藝術家而出現。我覺得這是一個挺複雜的事,在布拉格就不會經歷這樣的考驗。在巴黎可能會有類似的的經歷,但規模都小得多,不像在倫敦。雖然很艱苦,但是同時這也是一個挑戰和機遇。

 


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