Mark Fisher OBE, architect, founder and CEO of STUFISH. Graduated from Architectural Association School of Architecture in 1971. Devoting to show design for 40 years, clients include the Rolling Stones, U2, Pink Floyd, Madonna, Lady Gaga and etc. Other main projects include opening and closing ceremony of Lon- don Olympic Games, opening ceremony of Beijing Olympic Games, Turin Olympic Games, Guangzhou Asian Games, and Cirque du Soleil’s KA stage design, etc. Current working architectural projects in China are Han Show Theatre and film theme park.
馬克 • 費希(Mark Fisher),大英帝國傑出勛章獲得者(OBE), 建築師。STUFISH創始人、董事。1971年畢業於 英國AA建築聯盟建築學院(Architectural Association School of Architecture) 。為娛樂演出的設計貫穿於 他四十年的職業生涯,其中著名樂隊和歌手包括:滾石(Rolling Stone)、U2、平克 • 弗洛伊德 (Pink Floyd)、 瑪丹娜(Madonna)、Lady Gaga等。主要大型演出作品包括:倫敦奧運會開閉幕式 (執行總監)、北京奧運會 開 幕 式 設 計 、都 靈 冬 奧 運 動 會 開 幕 式 、廣 州 亞 運 會 開 幕 式 、太 陽 馬 戲 團 K A 秀 劇 場 設 計 與 演 出 空 間 設 計 等 。 正在進行的中國建築項目有為武漢漢秀劇場(Han Show Theatre) 和電影主題公園等。 www.stufish.com
ART.ZIP: YOU ARE VERY PROFESSIONAL ARTIST NOT ONLY IN PERFORMANCE ARTS BUT ALSO IN ARCHITECTURE. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE AUDIENCE AND ENTERTAINMENT SPACE?
MARK: Well, the audience, in the end, are the most important people in the projects. They are paying their own hard earned money to be entertained. The entertainment business in the end is about giving entertainment and culture to people. So everything that we do as a design studio, everything we do with the people is really supporting the audience, making the audience experience positively and that ideally has some thoughts and imagination behind. So it’s not just superficial. We work with the artists to create shows that have meaning or interest and will connect with the audience. So the audiences understand what it is. We are indeed like pop artists, creating popular arts for the masses.
MARK:觀眾歸根結底是演出項目中重要的群體,在任何項 目上都是這樣,他們將自己辛苦賺來的錢去獲取一種娛樂消 費。娛樂產業最終是將娛樂和文化帶給觀眾。我們工作室所做 的、包括和別人合作的所有項目的目的也在於使觀眾獲得積極 的體驗,希望為他們帶來思考和想像,而不僅僅停留在表面。 我們與藝術家共同創作一場使人愉悅的演出,也是為了與觀眾 溝通,要讓觀眾明白它是什麼。所以我認為我們算是流行藝術 家吧,力圖為更多的人群創造一種流行藝術。
ART.ZIP:I AM IMPRESSED BY THE STAGE DESIGN YOU DID FOR ROLLING STONES ‘A BIGGER BANG OUTDOOR TOUR2005’. AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, THIS IDEA CAME FROM THE ITALIAN CLASSICAL OPERA. WOULD YOU TALK ABOUT THIS DESIGN?
MARK:I saw the audience, they are all just very excited and drunk. They are part of the show that was really the idea. It sounds crazy, but you know it’s fun. In a show like that, the Rolling Stones has good time music, but you are not trying to save the world. You are just trying to give people a good time. So those people are in a very special position, wave to their friends and they can have party and they have got this great band playing down there, and it’s all very exciting and that’s it, not trying to do anything else. Which is for example just to be clear, creating a show like that for the Rolling Stones is very different from what I did with Zhang Yimou on the Olympics where it was all about meaning, the idea of making a symbol for ‘One World, One Dream’ to come out the floor at the climax of the opening ceremony, that’s about meaning. That is something where you are doing something that you want everyone in the world who is watching it on TV to say ‘I got it’! That is the symbol of China’s message to the world on the Olympics which I think we did really well. It was just a fabulous moment when that thing came out. Everything, the acrobats, the singers, the beautiful picture with all the faces and every- thing came together in one thing. You didn’t have to be so clever as a viewer of TV, or you didn’t have to understand English or Chinese, you just had to understand ‘One World, One Dream’. This is China giving this message to the world. Whereas in the Rolling Stones it’s just ‘hey, come on let’s have a party’, that’s all you are trying to do. There are these very different ends to what we do, to what I do as an artist and they are both important in the social world that we live in. But they are very different and I don’t confuse them, I mean I am not thinking with the Rolling Stones that we are making some kind of message we are just having a party. But with Zhang Yimou, we are definitely not having a party, this is the biggest thing that China is going to do for 100 years and we are putting it on the line, this is what China believes. The interesting thing is to have that range to understand what you are doing, so that you don’t get it wrong.
ART.ZIP:我非常感喜歡您為滾石樂隊 “石破天驚”2005-2006 世界巡迴演唱會設計的舞台空間,據我所知這一創意來自意大 利古典歌劇劇場。參與這場音樂會的部分觀眾置身在演出空間 裡,他們的感受發生了奇妙的變化。能否具體談談這個設計?
MARK:我看到很多在場觀眾非常興奮。將觀眾融於演出空 間中確實也是這個演唱會整體舞台設計的最初想法。這聽上 去很瘋狂,但非常有趣。在一個娛樂活動裡,正如“滾石”所帶 來的那些美好的音樂,你不是力圖去拯救這個世界,你只想儘 力給人們帶來快樂。所以這些人在舞台上奮力朝着他們的朋友 揮舞,他們也成為了演出的一部分。舉一個明顯的例子,與“ 滾石”樂隊的合作完全不同於與張藝謀導演合作北京奧運會開幕式。北京奧運會開幕式需要傳達的是意義,這個意義是作為 “同一個世界”的象徵,正如“同一個夢想”在開幕式高潮處從地 面冉冉升起一樣,這便是“意義”。並且希望世界上每個角落的 人通過電視看見它,然後說“我明白了!”。這是中國通過奧運 會向全世界傳達的信息,我認為在那次開幕式設計上我們做到 了很好的象徵意義。當一切都呈現出來的時候,那真是非常美 妙的時刻。所有一切,當雜技演員、歌手、所有的面孔和一切 美麗的圖畫融合在一起, 即使不懂英文或者中文,你便能讀懂“ 同一個世界、同一個夢想”,這就是中國通過開幕式給予全世 界的訊息。然而,在“滾石”演唱會上它只是說:“嘿,來吧, 讓我們一起來派對”。作為演出,在終極目的上,這裡有非常 多的不同,作為藝術家我所作的事情和我身處社會這個大世界 所作的事情,他們都是重要的,但他們又是非常不同的,我不 會混淆他們。當你弄清這個範疇並瞭解你在做什麼的時候,你 就不會弄錯了。
ART.ZIP: STUFISH IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON A FEW CHINESE PROJECTS, SUCH AS THE HANSHOW THEATRE AND THEME PARK, I COULD SEE QUITE TYPICAL CHINESE SYMBOLS FROM YOUR DRAWINGS. SHALL WE TALK SOMETHING ABOUT THAT?
MARK: A city is a place where you go in the evening for entertainment. In Chinese urban life, lanterns are part of the landscape in the evening. So a lantern is sort of subconscious thing to the Chinese, a red lantern is about good times in the evening. It’s a place about the evening pleasure and it also can be a very beautiful object and that was really what we were trying to do. It could have a name, it could have a picture and then we could also work with that we are not just going to build a red lantern. We want to build a modern building, and this is coming back to legibility. We want to build a modern building that when an ordinary citizen of Wuhan walks pass it, and they got, ah yes, red lantern, I get it. I understand why this building is called the red lantern even though it is a modern building and it is interesting that, it’s a little bit of making people think but connecting it to their everyday life they think about. The same about the golden bells, the film theme park building, because there are some significant bells associated with Wuhan and so I had the idea of bells, music pleasure and then just making this composition of the bells as if they were ringing, but again it is abstract. But if you see it and you know what the building is called, then you think, oh yeah, I understand. This is not a random thing, this is a thing connected to my city, to the history of my city. It’s also connected to the part of my city that is to do with music and with not necessarily entertainment, because it is more formal but with things to do with the culture of my city. So I can understand why it is there, it is not a totally random object, it is not like someone has shown up in Wuhan and decided to put a big egg besides the lake or a sausage or a pair of chopsticks. We have put something there which is thoughtful in a way that I hope the people of Wuhan will understand and appreciate and think, ‘yes, this is a piece of our culture, our history but it has been interpreted in a modern way’.
ART.ZIP:STUFISH目前在中國正在進行的項目包括大連萬達集 團投資於武漢的“漢秀”劇院和主題電影公園,從設計圖上看,這 是一座有着典型中國文化符號的建築,能否談談這個建築?
MARK:城市是一個你晚上想去消費娛樂的地方。在中國的城市 生活裡,燈籠是夜晚風景的一部分。因此,燈籠常在潛意識裡象 徵著在中國的一個夜晚、一段美好的時光。這是屬於晚上的樂 趣,也可以是一個非常美麗的對象,這是我們真正試圖做的事。 我想,我們不只是要建立一個“大紅燈籠高高掛的”建築,我們要建 設一個現代化建築,一座容易解讀的建築,讓隨便一個普通武漢 市民走過去都能知道這個大紅燈籠的符號意義。相同的,以金色 編鐘為視覺符號的電影主題公園的建築,是因為武漢常有一些顯 著的鐘聲才使我有了這個構想。組合這個金鐘與鐘聲同樣是抽象 的。建築,不是一個隨意的事情,這是一個連接居民居住的城市以及其歷史的作品。所以它不是一個完全隨機的對象,它不是 隨便把什麼東西帶到武漢,比如把一個大的雞蛋放在湖裡,或 者放上一段香腸,或者一雙筷子。我們的設計都經過深思熟 慮,希望武漢市民能夠理解並欣賞他們,並認為這是一座將 我們的文化、我們的歷史以現代方式來傳達的建築作品。我們 的作品是能夠被人們所理解和賞識的,是結合了歷史,文化而 產生出的現代作品,是有根源的。
ART.ZIP: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE HANSHOW PROJECT AND THE ENVIRONMENT?
MARK:I don’t think it matters. I don’t think you want every single building in a city to tell a story. You just want selected important buildings in a city to tell a story, the rest of the city becomes the background. That’s important, otherwise you get overloaded and nobody understands what is going on, for example a block of apartments, you don’t need the block of apartments to tell you a story, about being apartments or a hotel to tell you a story. I believe, about the Chinese, I mean what can say I know about the Chinese, I can’t say anything that I know about the Chinese. Although I have spent a lot of time in China, talked to many Chinese, and I hope I have good Chinese friends. There is something about the Chinese approach which I think comes from your ideogram alphabet. Your approach to understand the world is symbolic as a culture, you want to know why things are the way they are all the time. I think because you would think, but of course we wanna know why, but you could have the same conversation in America and nobody would ask you why, that is my point. The point is Chinese will always ask you why, be- cause you want to know the reason why the thing looks the way it is, you are not an abstract culture in that way. I mean you have a highly abstract alphabet in that, and the ideograms are so developed from how they were created, and that they are very very abstract but with explanation, you can be told exactly why the thing is like this, that this is the house, this is the man, this is the tree, this is the river and that this is that symbol, because this is the story behind it. That is the world that you are totally brought up in as a Chinese person when you live in that language and it affects the way you think and the way you understand the world, and it makes you different from us, you must find this when you try to translate.
The cultural intellectual approach here to things is absolutely different. To me, this is one of the most interesting things about going to China and work- ing in China is understanding this and learning about it and trying to work with it in a positive way, because I think it is really interesting and I think this is really where this conversation about symbolism and legibility comes from. I think this difference between East and West is profound and it leads to a huge amount of misunderstanding at every level between our cultures, which is stupid. Because I think the Chinese is so patient with the West and the West is so impatient and really doesn’t un- derstand that the Chinese people. When you are in a conversation with a Chinese person, they are processing your words in a totally different way to the way in which you are saying to them, and because they are speaking back to you in English. They are processing their thoughts in a totally dif- ferent framework to talk to you. As a Westerner, and you receive it as a Westerner. You think, oh this is a Western person talking to me, but it’s not, and so this whole thing about symbolism is so important in the visual arts like architecture, show design and everything else it’s really the base of it. So that is something that I hope I understand in a small way and it’s been the thing that has most informed my approach to working in China as a designer and an architect.
MARK:我覺得沒有什麼關係,並不是每一個獨立建築都要講述一個故事。我們只是需要選擇一些重要的建築讓其有敘事 性,其他的建築可以作為背景。這是很重要的,否則信息就會 過載,你不需要在公寓建築設計上也像講述故事一樣。對於中 國我並不能說非常瞭解,雖然我已經花了很多時間在中國與 很多中國人交談。關於中國的思維方式,我認為有一些是來自 於漢字字母的結構。作為一種文化,你想知道為什麼事情會 是這樣,語言的方法是認識世界的方式。相同的談話在美國, 就沒人會問你為什麼,中國始終問你為什麼,因為你希望知道原因,這是我的觀點。你們有一個高度抽象的字母,表意的文字,這是房子,這是人,這是樹,這是河,這是符號,因為這是它背後的故事。作為一個中國人生活在這種語言中,它會影響你的思維方式和認識世界的方式,它使你們與我們的世界不同,你必須找到並嘗試着作出闡釋。
這裡的文化對我來說是完全不同的,到中國工作也是希望去瞭 解和理解這種文化,並試圖以積極的方式來用它工作。我認為 東方和西方之間對於象徵意義與可讀性的差別是深刻的,它導 致了大量的誤解,在每個層度之間的文化,誤解是愚蠢的。因 為我覺得中國對於西方是充滿了耐心,而西方對於東方常是不 耐煩的,他們真的不明白中國人。在西方語言的對話中,西方 人總是用自己的語言習慣去理解中國人的話,而中國人卻會試 圖用西方人的語言習慣去理解西方人。但這是不對的,所以在 視覺藝術上的溝通很重要,無論建築,設計或其他視覺藝術都 是這種視覺語言的基礎。所以我希望我能從小的地方開始理 解,這也是我去中國做設計師和建築師的原因。
ART.ZIP: WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST TO YOUNG CHINESE DESIGNER?
MARK: Get lots of practice! It is the only way. You just have to do it, make lots of mistakes, slowly figure it out. It’s always dangerous when people look at somebody like me who has been doing this for 40 years and they think I want to be like him. But the reason I am like what I am is because I have been doing it for 40 years! This is the same with lottery; it is the same with playing the piano or the violin or being an artist or a photographer. It takes time, and so how do you become like me? Do it for 40 years and you will be right there in 2050. Ready to go. I understand that young people are impatient for everything, but I never knew when I was 18, 20 that this is what I was going to do that never really was part of my view of the world. I just wanted to do things that were interesting that I could feel satisfied by intellectually things, that were interesting things, that were not trivial things, that al- lowed me to work with my skills and things, that allowed me to explore my paticular, give me opportunities to use my skills. So I have ended up in entertainment, had it been slightly different. I may have ended up building airplanes or anything else, I don’t think waking up as a child there was a burn ing ambition to work in the entertainment business, I just woke up with a burning ambition to have an interesting life. That is all, I don’t know how else you can measure it, and I have had an extraordinarily interesting life because of that, and because I have never said no. So here we are!
MARK:進行儘可能多的實踐,這是唯一的方式。你只需要做 到這一點,把錯誤慢慢弄明白。不開始行動才是最危險的。 當人們看我或像我這樣的人時,常說很想成為像我或他一樣 的人,但我認為我之所以成為今天的我就是我在這個行業一 直堅持了40年!這與陶瓷家、鋼琴家、小提琴家、攝影師一 樣,這需要時間,所以要怎麼才能變得像我這樣?堅持做上 40年,從今天算起你就會在2050年蓄勢待發。但據我所知, 年輕人都缺少耐心,但我在18、20歲的時候也不知道以後要 幹什麼,也沒有一些對世界的看法。我只是做自己想做的事 情,認為有趣的、不平凡的事情,做一些能讓我發揮所長的事 情。我如果不是選擇從事娛樂領域設計的話,可能就去製造飛 機或別的東西。我不認為誰是一覺醒來就有勃勃雄心致力於娛 樂圈工作,我只是抱著勃勃雄心起來去做事,去過我認為有趣 的生活。這就是我想說的,我不知道用什麼方式去衡量生活, 但我認為自己擁有一個非常有趣的生活,因為我從來不退縮。
ART.ZIP: DO YOU LIKE POP MUSIC? WHO IS YOUR FAVOURITE?
MARK: Some of it but not all. Well, I am an old guy, so I still enjoy the Rolling Stones and the people I grew up with, and they are still producing new stuff. So I am very lucky that I get to work with these people whose music I really really like. We are even at the moment doing a show with the Rolling Stones right now. At home I listen to jazz, classical music, don’t listen too much of the music I work with. But when I am working and I am in the room with a bunch of live musicians I really love it, and I can even say that of being in a room with Madonna or Lady Gaga. We have worked with Lady Gaga and she is fantastic because she is a brilliant musician, you can be there when she is singing and playing the piano and you think this is as good as it gets. I have actually listened to some of her songs at home because there is some stuff I re- ally like. Mostly I would sit down and listen to somebody playing Mozart on the piano if I am relaxing.
MARK:某些吧,不是全部。我是一個老傢伙,所以我還 是喜歡滾石樂隊,那些陪伴我成長的人,他們仍然在創作 新的東西。我很幸運一開始便與這些我真心喜歡的音樂人 在一起工作。我們甚至現在還在為滾石做演唱會。在家, 我聽爵士、古典,沒有特別去聽那些工作上會碰到的作 品。但是,當我在錄音室與現場演奏的樂手在一起時, 我確實非常喜歡,比如說,和瑪丹娜、Lady Gaga。Lady Gaga,她真的太棒了,她是一位才華橫溢的音樂家, 她 的演唱和鋼琴演奏讓我覺得非常贊。其實我在家也聽她的 歌曲,有一些曲目我真的很喜歡。如果我想要放鬆的話, 通常我會坐下來聽別人演奏莫扎特的音樂。